Curse

HawkofStorms · Aug 09, 2008, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Alright, I've been reading a LOT of talk about how the new Ebon Vanguard Sniper support is amazing, or how people are going to form teams full of guys to spam this on dungeon bosses, or for teams full of Me/Es to echo spam this skill.
A few of us have been making the point about it in the Update thread, but its kinda getting lost in the pages of Ursan qqing, so I thought this was important enough to warrent its own thread.

This is all for non-charr foes. For Charr, this skill is pretty reliable.

Mathematically speaking, 90 damage with 10% of an additional 900 damage is the same as 90 damage with an additional 90 damage 100% of the time. Over the long term, it will have the same DPS. Short term spikes you may get lucky... or you may not at all.

Lets compare [Ebon Vanguard Sniper Support] to [Lightning Orb] at 14 air magic (12 + 1 minor rune + headgear, common on PvE or PvP eles).
The damage types are different, being Piercing or Lightning damage. But they are both affected by armor (which is not an additional calculation used in this model, but it is unnecessary, if it was added, lightning orbs cracked armor would give it an unfair advantage).

Sniper support deals 180 damage on average every 16.75 seconds (cast time + recharge time + aftercast) and inflicts bleeding.

Lightning Orb (PvE) deals 94 damage every 7.75 seconds (cast time + recharge + aftercast) and inflicts cracked armor.

In the same time it takes for sniper to recharge, Lightning Orb can be cast twice (7.75x2=15.5). Meaning Lightning Orb on average deals 188 damage every 15.5 seconds, better then Sniper supports 180 damage every 16.75 (not adding in the bleeding damage via degen or how cracked armor makes the second lightning orb and all other casts deal more damage).

Lightning orb costs more energy, but is a negligable concern since it is affected by air attunement and can be easily taken care of by an ele primary's e-storage and glyph of lesser.

In a sense, they are about even, with lightning orb coming out on top narrowly. Now, against Charr foes it is another matter.
Now in short term situations, you might get lucky through random varience and chance (getting 9 900s in a row), but you might get unlucky and not get it 30 times in a row. There is no way to improve this chance and having more teammates use it doesn't improve that chance.

We could easily do another comparison with armor ignoring necro blood damage, but I don't feel like doing the numbers. All I'm trying to say is while ebon sniper is a fun skill and a useful skill, it is far from the best thing since sliced bread.

Discuss.

I'd also like to mention I will be traveling the next couple of days and be unable to respond or read this, so if you plan on trolling me save your breath, I won't see it or respond.

Mr. Undisclosed · Aug 09, 2008, 04:31 AM // 04:31

/facepalm I'm fairly certain most people know its not omgwtfawesum but its cool to use because of chance for it to work.

lyra_song · Aug 09, 2008, 04:32 AM // 04:32

if i dont have to spec in anything to get that kind of damage, ya its pretty great.

Faer · Aug 09, 2008, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

Alright, I've been reading a LOT of talk about how the new Ebon Vanguard Sniper support is amazing, or how people are going to form teams full of guys to spam this on dungeon bosses, or for teams full of Me/Es to echo spam this skill.
A few of us have been making the point about it in the Update thread, but its kinda getting lost in the pages of Ursan qqing, so I thought this was important enough to warrent its own thread.

This is all for non-charr foes. For Charr, this skill is pretty reliable.

Mathematically speaking, 90 damage with 10% of an additional 900 damage is the same as 90 damage with an additional 90 damage 100% of the time. Over the long term, it will have the same DPS. Short term spikes you may get lucky... or you may not at all.

Lets compare [Ebon Vanguard Sniper Support] to [Lightning Orb] at 14 air magic (12 + 1 minor rune + headgear, common on PvE or PvP eles).
The damage types are different, being Piercing or Lightning damage. But they are both affected by armor (which is not an additional calculation used in this model, but it is unnecessary, if it was added, lightning orbs cracked armor would give it an unfair advantage).

Sniper support deals 180 damage on average every 16.75 seconds (cast time + recharge time + aftercast) and inflicts bleeding.

Lightning Orb (PvE) deals 94 damage every 7.75 seconds (cast time + recharge + aftercast) and inflicts cracked armor.

In the same time it takes for sniper to recharge, Lightning Orb can be cast twice (7.75x2=15.5). Meaning Lightning Orb on average deals 188 damage every 15.5 seconds, better then Sniper supports 180 damage every 16.75 (not adding in the bleeding damage via degen or how cracked armor makes the second lightning orb and all other casts deal more damage).

Lightning orb costs more energy, but is a negligable concern since it is affected by air attunement and can be easily taken care of by an ele primary's e-storage and glyph of lesser.

In a sense, they are about even, with lightning orb coming out on top narrowly. Now, against Charr foes it is another matter.
Now in short term situations, you might get lucky through random varience and chance (getting 9 900s in a row), but you might get unlucky and not get it 30 times in a row. There is no way to improve this chance and having more teammates use it doesn't improve that chance.

We could easily do another comparison with armor ignoring necro blood damage, but I don't feel like doing the numbers. All I'm trying to say is while ebon sniper is a fun skill and a useful skill, it is far from the best thing since sliced bread.

Discuss.

I'd also like to mention I will be traveling the next couple of days and be unable to respond or read this, so if you plan on trolling me save your breath, I won't see it or respond.

Wall of Text, sir! Many, many superfluous words!

Simplified: 90% chance do to shit-all. That's why it sucks.

fenix · Aug 09, 2008, 04:41 AM // 04:41

tl;dr

10% chance to do something you can do with some dps.

A11Eur0 · Aug 09, 2008, 04:45 AM // 04:45

It saved Rurik's ass in Nolani HM today when it criticalled on the ranger boss about to pwnsauce him. So yeah...I'll take it when I'm fighting charr. meaning, when I'm vanquishing old ascalon, or doing charr homelands stuff. Otherwise, I'll take sin support and pain inverter.

Spazzer · Aug 09, 2008, 04:47 AM // 04:47

This thread might as well be comparing Lightning Orb to Fireball.

Marverick · Aug 09, 2008, 04:48 AM // 04:48

Meh I thought sniper support was AoE like the old one was, that was why I was making echo builds and stuff. Then I found out it wasn't.

A11Eur0 · Aug 09, 2008, 04:51 AM // 04:51

It's more likely comparing lightning orb to unsuspecting strike. Sure lightning orb has a higher damage than sniper support on average. Too bad only eles can run it, and if I'm running an ele in PvE, I'm not running air, unless I need it for something special, like shiro. Sniper support can go on any bar from any profession, and the bleeding alone with the damage is worth taking it, then there's the chance of a critical. On charr, it should be on EVERY bar, because there's always one skill that isn't really necessary, and this skill can make so many charr areas a cakewalk.

fenix · Aug 09, 2008, 04:53 AM // 04:53

What, it isn't a skill that should be on EVERY bar vs charr. It's terrible. The bleeding is bad, the skill is bad, you're better off bringing Flare.

Against Charr, all you need is physical damage, and if you use adren, the Rebel Yell bonus. That's it. Ebon Sniper sucks vs Charr as much as it does vs everything else.

Magikarp · Aug 09, 2008, 05:09 AM // 05:09

ive yet to understand its hype. the best summon in the game is Ebon Sin, and its even more amazing on an AP bar.. so idk why you would waste your time unless you were charr boss killing..

around · Aug 09, 2008, 05:14 AM // 05:14

ITS LEET COS YOU GET TO SEE PEW PEW BIG YELLOW NUMBERS

this is truth. as proclaimed by around.

njaguar · Aug 09, 2008, 05:16 AM // 05:16

It's Awsum Caus 900 Dmg

Vazze · Aug 09, 2008, 05:17 AM // 05:17

don't worry, after you explained to all the ursans why this skill sux, they will find another one that they think would work in a "team build" if everybody except their monks carries it (and only that). No point, let them fail.

Lest121 · Aug 09, 2008, 05:24 AM // 05:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

ive yet to understand its hype. the best summon in the game is Ebon Sin, and its even more amazing on an AP bar.. so idk why you would waste your time unless you were charr boss killing..

This is why we have the Charr Homeworld, if you are not in playing in that Area no need to carry the skill.

MercenaryKnight · Aug 09, 2008, 05:25 AM // 05:25

When I saw the buff, I thought it was still an aoe damage spell. I figured, ok maybe it'd be worth it to bring because you could spike down a whole mob if you got a lucky cast or something.

Note, I figured that each adjacent enemy would get hit with it's own hit% of a headshot. Not like if you cast it and it gets the 10% chance of hitting that all the mobs will instantly get headshotted.

But now it is single target and not as great as I thought it would be.

However, now on an AP bar you could run sniper support, assassin support and finish him or anything you want. Because it gives a bleeding condition now no matter what it hits, so no longer need you move like a dwarf.

Richardt · Aug 09, 2008, 05:50 AM // 05:50

I took it on a vanquish just to see what it was like. 5 one shot kills out of 200 foes.

We used it in Urgoz last night-I myself got about the same ratio of heavy hits/enemies killed. The only good thing here is that with a party of 12, you have a high chance of someone in the party getting that sweet hit. BUT most of the time that sweet hit came when the foe was nearly dead. There were 2 times during the entire run it brought down a foe at full life.

For normal foes, you're better off with something else. I'll agree with Hawk on that.

I haven't tested it on Charr foes yet-I need to drag my guild into Rrager's for some testing.

upier · Aug 09, 2008, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by njaguar

It's Awsum Caus 900 Dmg

No, it's bad because of it.

Chthon · Aug 09, 2008, 06:05 AM // 06:05

OP's main point is correct. EVSS isn't that great.

Small nitpick: It's incorrect to count aftercast into the cycle unless the recharge is less than 0.75 sec, because the skill is recharging during the aftercast. Cycle = Cast + Greater_Of(Aftercast, Recharge).

garethporlest18 · Aug 09, 2008, 06:12 AM // 06:12

I bring it regardless and use it along with my massive DPS. For kicks and giggles really, I don't rely on the skill though. I used it in FoW with the disease skill cause I didn't need 2 of the skill slots and well no reason to be useful in PvE.